How to Save Money When Buying 15ah Lithium Battery Factory

Hugues

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• Feb 6,

• #26

and, to the risk of being stamped "HPC agent" , these packs are assembled in the USA !

How's that for a bonus ?

richirich

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• Feb 6,

• #27

To be honest i think the cells still come from china, They just mite be assembled here. I did alot of resarched to see if it was possible to buy them from somewhere cheaper than HPC and there is no way. When i contacted Tenergy to see if i could only purchase a couple of packs i was told that they were special order and only in very large quantities.
Also the specs on them i believe are 12ah with a true 10ah rating

Here is the link to the individual cell that are used in the HPC batteries. From the spesc on them they do seem alot safer than other lipo's. There is a link on the page to the complete test data. If you can build your own packs ,it seem that they do cell single cells and it is possible to save some bucks.

http://www.all-battery.com/37volt-mah5cli-polycell-1.aspx

dogman dan

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• Feb 6,

• #28

Those look ok. What are they exactly, Lico, Limn ? Love those sales pages that just say lipoly. That narrows it right down to at least 2-3 things.

I could be wrong, but the smallest cheapest ebike battery I know of is 10s or 12s 5 ah from hobby king.

Charging can cost anywhere from $50- $500. $50 is going to take forever. But if you are only charging two bricks, not so bad.

Hugues

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• Feb 6,

• #29

dogman said: ...but the smallest cheapest ebike battery I know of is 10s or 12s 5 ah from hobby king. ...

by smallest you mean highest energy by volume unit ?

if so, could you please post a link to this pack ?

it's probably not the one i posted above.

thanks

neptronix

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• Feb 6,

• #30

Sure thing!
Take 4 of these to make 10S / 10AH:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/____Turnigy_mAh_5S_20C_Lipo_Pack.html

Add 2 of these in serial to add 4S/10AH.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/____Turnigy_mAh_4S_20C_Lipo_Pack.html

Then ya got 14S/10AH

shipped price will be under $250 from the international warehouse, could be cheaper at a local one like the ~$220 figure i quoted.

Add a BMS, $100 for a pretty nice one.
Add a Charger, $100 for a pretty nice one.

Total cost would be $450, plus a bit of your time wiring it up.
As for size.. RC Lipo is one of the smallest batteries you can possibly buy.

I can fit 15S ( 56v nominal ) / 20AH into my bike's triangle in a falconEV bag.
Or 20S ( 76v nominal ) / 15AH into the same bag.

27 miles can only happen if you are going quite slow, on 10AH that kind of range is abnormally high. If you're going around 30+ mph, which most motors would do on 52v nominal, you would be getting less than 1/2 that mileage figure.

Hugues said:

neptronix said: $900 for 14S 10AH lipo with only slightly better cycle life than hobbyking lipo?

About $220 shipped for the equivalent amount of hobbyking lipo ( 14S/10AH ), lol
As a bonus, they will lie about the range.. 27 miles on 10AH on a BMC motor? Maybe if you are doing about 15mph constant.

I don't know who is worse, Chinese battery scammers or companies like this.

please give me the link to this pack at Hobby King, last time i checked i could not find a pack with the same energy that could fit in my frame bag.

Just to be sure we are comparing apples with apples, the ones i linked (and use) have an integrated BMS so i can bulk charge every day and maybe once a month i balance if needed, and that's important for me, but i understand it might not be for every one.

As for the range you say is a lie, 27 miles does not seem far from what i do with my pack.

neptronix

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• Feb 6,

• #31

BTW, here is 15S/20AH in my frame, to show how compact RC Lipo is. That's 12 lipo bricks.
I could actually fit 18S/20AH or 24S/15AH in there if i went to 6S Lipo bricks. That's about 1.3kWh in the frame, lol.

$600 worth of lipo and very compact.
So compared to the hipower cycle pack, my cell cost is 1/3rd of what they charge.
Now do you understand why i think hipower cycles is ripping you off?

BTW, a pack made of Dow Kokam cells would be roughly the same size, double the price of RC Lipo, but 5x the cycle life and very safe. Even at double the price, it would still be cheaper than the hi-power cycle pack.

Just sayin.

neptronix

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• Feb 6,

• #32

richirich said: I was thinking about the HK lipos but the amount of them to equal plus the larger size difference ,then having to get BMS's , chargers , power supplys , battery medics, Balancing harnesses. Then hoping all six packs after the long wait from HK were going to show up and not have dead cells. The constant monitoring. For me also is just not worth it.
This is just my opinion.

Wow, you have heard some misinformation, haven't you.
You can stick a BMS on a HK lipo pack and charge it just like any other 3.6-3.8v nominal cell.

Hook it up in permanent series/parallel and you have the same exact thing as any other pre-made pack.

Long wait ?? you live in the same state as their USA warehouse, lol.

Size difference? it's hard to beat the size of RC lipo. The tenergy cells you linked are the same size / weight per wHr as RC Lipo.. the only thing that beats RC lipo is weak-sauce 1-2C rated Dow Kokam and Allcell batteries.

Hugues

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• Feb 6,

• #33

mmm, lost my post and the details of my calc,

but if you do the math, you get slightly less volume for 2 HPC packs than your 6 Hobby King cells, and less weight, not taking into account your Hobby King does not have BMS, and you'll have more cables due to 6 packs.

I just can't fit more in my frame. Even if Hobby King give them away, they won't fit.

but thanks for the links.

richirich

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• Feb 6,

• #34

Holy crap, thats alot of batteries. Unfortunatly, with a full suspension frame theres no way to get that in the triangle.

neptronix

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• Feb 6,

• #35

Bummer you lost your calculations.

I am getting about 5.5lbs per 10S 10AH group, with Turnigy.
If we are only talking about cells, the tenergy 10AH would be about 4.5lbs.. add connectors, shrinkwrap, padding, solder / interconnection etc and you may be up to 5lbs.

The difference is not too large, maybe the HPC is a little smaller, but at over 3x the cost, it is not worth it.
Not when Dow Kokams with a superior safety and cycle life are much cheaper.

I love small size and low weight, but cost and cycle life do have to be factored in.

Hugues said: mmm, lost my post and the details of my calc,

but if you do the math, you get slightly less volume for 2 HPC packs than your 6 Hobby King cells, and less weight, not taking into account your Hobby King does not have BMS, and you'll have more cables due to 6 packs.

I just can't fit more in my frame. Even if Hobby King give them away, they won't fit.

but thanks for the links.

neptronix

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• Feb 6,

• #36

richirich said: Holy crap, thats alot of batteries. Unfortunatly, with a full suspension frame theres no way to get that in the triangle.

Only an example. But now you know why i use this RC Lipo.


The same amount can fit into a topeak bag.


I wish someone would build a Dow kokam pack so we can see the size to compare.

Hugues

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• Feb 6,

• #37

neptronix said: ...
The difference is not too large, maybe the HPC is a little smaller, but at over 3x the cost, it is not worth it.
Not when Dow Kokams with a superior safety and cycle life are much cheaper.
....

superior safety ?

could you cite your sources ?

and last time i check Dow Kokam, they seemed more expensive, but it' s too late for me to do the math...i'm going to bed

or maybe not, i recall 1'000 usd per kwh i think, fron the group buy thread, more expensive if you buy one pack only.
we're talking here about 50v and 10 ah, so 500 usd right, just for the cells, no bms, not mounted in a pack.
does not seem to be that much cheaper.

Hugues

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• Feb 6,

• #38

neptronix said: Bummer you lost your calculations.
...

Here's the math if you had any doubt, i made it:

4 of these:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/____Turnigy_mAh_5S_20C_Lipo_Pack.html
149 x 48 x 42mm and 666 g = 1'201 cm3 and 2.664 kgs
2 of these:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/____Turnigy_mAh_4S_20C_Lipo_Pack.html
148 x 49 x 33mm and 536 g = 479 cm3 and 1.072 kgs

total is 1'680 cm3 and 3.736 kgs

HPC pack 2 times 7s is
180x70x60 for 1.3 kgs = 1.512 cm3 and 2.6 kgs,

and you have the BMS included and less cables.

And it fits in my frame.

richirich

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• Feb 6,

• #39

If you check out the spec and testing on these cells ( link is under the graph) to full product data. These cell look to me as alot safer than the HK lipo for fire and explosion risk. I dont know i could be wrong?

http://www.all-battery.com/37volt-mah5cli-polycell-1.aspx

neptronix

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• Feb 6,

• #40

Yeah but the Turnigy has double the discharge rate..
And 1/3rd the price.

http://www.hi-powercycles.com/product.sc?productId=29&categoryId=5

For example, this is 78v/10AH above, for $.. ( no way it is 20AH. )

Let's make the equivalent turnigy pack..
$45 x 8 5S 5AH = $360

666g x 8 = g = 11.8lbs, versus what HPC claims as 10lbs.

Maybe you are OK to pay such a high price for a little less weight/size, but most people are not.

And the wire mess disappears when you perma-solder the pack together just like the HPC pack. Add the BMS, and it is the same. If you can DIY, you can save a lot of $ here.

Hugues

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• Feb 6,

• #41

Nep, I was not talking about money but specs, it was important to get the facts right.

Still waiting for your source about safety .

Thanks

• Feb 6,

• #42

Yeah, I remember getting 32 miles on 36v 10ah. Yep those were the days.
32 miles round trip to Bussie Woods on a FOXX 10ah pack. Top speed was 16mph with a 20" wheel on my Recumbent. No BMS to shut down and pedaled my ass off worring if I'd make it.

Now with 30mph++ it's impossible for me to do it now.

so I guess if you go downwind and downhill both directions it would work.

Don't you guys remember walking to school10 miles and it was uphill both ways? On ebikes it's downhill both ways!

Dan

amberwolf

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• Feb 6,

• #43

Hugues said:

neptronix said: ...
The difference is not too large, maybe the HPC is a little smaller, but at over 3x the cost, it is not worth it.
Not when Dow Kokams with a superior safety and cycle life are much cheaper.
....

superior safety ?

I have not verified this, but I expect that DK actually tests all their cells, and probably has very good process QC to ensure consistency in all the materials used to create them. That alone should ensure greater safety, simply by removing defective cells before the end user gets them (unlike with typical RC Lipo, which I don't think has much if any QC in cell factories and little to none at pack factories). This is likely the same with other large manufacturers of high-capacity major brand EV-use cells like EIG, A123, LG, etc.--part of their higher cost comes from money spent on QC, which partly ensures that they don't have as many bad cells to begin with, and then tries to ensure that the ones they do make don't get out into the consumer's hands.

I do not know if the HPC/AllCell stuff is ever QC tested at the cell level at their factory or later on, for every single cell, or what the factory QC is like for the materials they use to make them with. I don't expect that they do very extensive testing on any of it. Perhaps better than the RC LiPo, perhaps not.

neptronix

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• Feb 6,

• #44

Here is my source :

[youtube]-l9reROfBF8[/youtube]

http://www.dowkokam.com/presentations_resources/HTUFSchmidtSep_Final.pdf

Remember that Dow Kokams are used in very large industrial applications, so they have gone through the ringer.

Yup, $USD for 1kWh is the group buy price. The 10AH 78v hi-power cycle pack is i think around 800kWh? for $? let's take out $100 for BMS and say $..

You can do the math but the hi power cycles pack should be more like $-$/kWh for a cell that has half the cycle life

http://www.all-battery.com/37volt-mah5cli-polycell-1.aspx

Now look at what the actual cells that they use cost - let's say if you order 21 and the shipping makes the cells $35 ea..
$35 x 20 cell = $700
Add BMS.. $100

Labor: $100?
Hipower cycle's profit on that pack: $700

So like i said.. who is more criminal.. the China seller who ships you junk batteries that don't meet spec for a few hundred dollars or the company that charges you almost 50% markup over retail price of all components? ...

richirich

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• Feb 6,

• #45

Does'nt anyone know how to hagel? The price i got from them was far less that their advertised price. You cant hate the guys at HPC for trying. But this is America and cash talks...

motomech

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• Feb 6,

• #46

Neptronix
I'm thinking about doing a 14S2P[10Ah] pack with Turnigy 20C bricks, But each leg consisting of 6S + 4s + 4S to make 14S1P.
Total bricks, 2) 6S1P's, 4) 4S1P's.

The idea is, I could purchase an additional 2)6S1P's and reconfigure to 12S3P[15Ah] consisting of three legs, two of 6S + 6S and the other one of
4S + 4S + 4S, for longer rides.

My question to you is, do you know of any reason I couldn't use the 4S hard packs combined with the 6S soft packs? They would all be Turnigy 20C.

If I could, that would bring the cost of the 14S2P pack down to $176[plus shipping].
Adding the 2) 6S1P's would be an additional $88, bring the total for a 44.4V[nominal]15Ah pack to a whopping total of $264 :lol:

I would not use a BMS and I'm still debating a charging set-up.

I have an EVFalcon bag so your set-up has been inspirational.

Thanx

neptronix

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• Feb 6,

• #47

Motomech, as long as they are all 20C and the same brand ( turnigy ), they will work fine.
For 14S, there should be no debate.. go with the Hyperion 14S charger!

http://www.amazon.com/Hyperion-EOS-i-Net3-Charger/dp/B004E7MQ3Y

Then you will never have to worry about breaking apart your series group to charge. You will have to make a special balance adapter to fool the charger into thinking that you have two 7S groups, but that's doable

I went with 10S initially + the iCharger b+ for that reason. Nice to charge a big group in serial all at once than have to switch series/parallel/etc every time.

p.s. these RC lipo chargers are fine for the tenergy and dow kokam cells mentioned as well.

motomech

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• Feb 6,

• #48

for $125[plus shipping], I guess there is no reason not to go with Hyperion 14S charger.
With a Meanwell and various connectors etc., I would still be under $200.
I'm thinking I could spend that much on lesser chargers and still not be happy in the long run.

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