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Western Railroad Discussion > UP buying long rail
Current Page:1 of 2
Date: 04/07/15 08:06
UP buying long rail
Author: gmojim
http://www.rtands.com/index.php/track-structure/ballast-ties-rail/up-receives-delivery-of-game-changing-long-rail.html?channel=283
Interesting item on UP new long rail from Japan,
Do not believe this was posted earlier, if so I missed it.
gmojim
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/15 08:08 by gmojim.
Date: 04/07/15 08:31
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: CPR_
This had been covered in the past few weeks; IIRC the post focused on the ship that brings the rail over.
Would have been nice if an American supplier could have met UP's needs, using American steel and labor. The article says, "The company [UP] says it selected the only supplier who met all the necessary requirements for length, strength and weight . . ."
Date: 04/07/15 08:32
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: shadetree
Must have been something they couldn't get here. 156# ? Just a guess.
Eng.Shadetree
Date: 04/07/15 09:12
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: CPR_
Maybe, but you'd think a domestic supplier might have thought, "other railroads will likely follow suit, so maybe we should adapt to this need." I guess the theory is, the fewer welds, the more reliable the rail?
Date: 04/07/15 09:18
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: Lackawanna484
There were similar issues in dimensional lumber. The US mills decided that the older sizing standards worked fine for them, and nobody needed to convert to metric sizing and more precise measurements. So, nobody did. The Japanese invested in their mills, and bought our raw timber for milling mostly in Japan.
Date: 04/07/15 10:05
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: SOO
shadetree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Must have been something they couldn't get here.
> 156# ? Just a guess.
>
> Eng.Shadetree
The premium rail has been coming from overseas suppliers for many years. Japan, Germany, Netherlands are the most common sources. It hasn't been many years since the two US suppliers made the investment to be able to supply 78 ft. long rails. To roll 480 ft. long rails you need a rolling bed at least 960ft. long. I would expect that the rail is being rolled to the 141RE section, 141lbs per yard.
Date: 04/07/15 10:20
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: Washy
It's both 136lbs and 141Lbs... UP is standardizing the railroad again, changing from 133lbs on tangent track to 136lb, and laying curves in 141lbs replacing the harden head 136lbs.. Been seeing this first hand around Hinkle Or., steel gang is replacing 31 miles of rail on the Washy..
Posted from Android
Date: 04/07/15 10:37
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: Out_Of_Service
shadetree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Must have been something they couldn't get here.
> 156# ? Just a guess.
>
> Eng.Shadetree
156# ??? ... the heaviest rail made in the US was by Bethlehem Steel manufactured in the 30s of last century in 39ft 155# sections for then the Standard Railroad of the World ... the PRR ... since then rail has decreased in weight and Continuous Welded Rail (CWR) was manufacfured in ft length sections ...
CWR was first welded utilizing 39 ft section which produced a number of factory welds ... with each weld is a weak point in the molded steel rail ... the railroads wanted to reduce the potential rail defects by reducing the number of factory welds so the rail sections were extended to 80ft length sections which is the US standard today for pre welded CWR ...
not knowing the intricasies of rail manufacturing, i will venture to assume the reason US rail manufacturers haven't used this process is because of having to retool the rail manufacturing process at the plant which might not be cost effective ... i believe a new manufacfuring process and facility would be needed to produce this type of rail ...
some modern rail size standards for CWR have been 115#,119#,131#,132#,133#,136#,140#,141#... altho from what i understand and i could be wrong 140# rail hasn't been manufactured in decades ...
in the article it states the rail lengths are 480ft and only 2 welds will be needed ... so i'm trying to figure out, if the rail length is 480ft how only 2 welds are needed to build a ft section of CWR ..
Posted from Android
Date: 04/07/15 10:44
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: BobB
Out_Of_Service Wrote:
so i'm
> trying to figure out, if the rail length is 480ft
> how only 2 welds are needed to build a ft
> section of CWR ..
>
> Posted from Android
Take three 480 foot lengths, put them end to end, weld them together where they touch and you have feet. There will, of course, need to be additional welds when the foot lengths are connected to each other.
Date: 04/07/15 10:47
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: TAW
Out_Of_Service Wrote:
> in the article it states the rail lengths are
> 480ft and only 2 welds will be needed ... so i'm
> trying to figure out, if the rail length is 480ft
> how only 2 welds are needed to build a ft
> section of CWR ..
3x480=
Weld 1 - 480+480=960
Weld 2 - 960+480=
TAW
Date: 04/07/15 11:16
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: RRTom
UP must figure they will save a lot of money with these 480 foot imports that need special ships and docks. Maybe a volume thing.
Date: 04/07/15 11:28
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: Lackawanna484
Is there a significant advantage to the buyer railroad in using 141# versus 136# rail? It would seem that they're pretty close together size-wise.
Thanks
Date: 04/07/15 11:56
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: junctiontower
Just out of curiosity, I took at a look at Steel Dynamics' website. It says they produce 115RE, 136RE and 141RE in 320' sections, so thier continous rail will have one more weld than the stuff UP is buying.
Date: 04/07/15 12:40
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: SD45X
141 has more meat in the head for curve wear.
Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is there a significant advantage to the buyer
> railroad in using 141# versus 136# rail? It
> would seem that they're pretty close together
> size-wise.
>
> Thanks
Posted from Android
Date: 04/07/15 12:53
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: Lackawanna484
SD45X Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 141 has more meat in the head for curve wear.
>
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is there a significant advantage to the buyer
> > railroad in using 141# versus 136# rail? It
> > would seem that they're pretty close together
> > size-wise.
> >
> > Thanks
>
> Posted from Android
Thank you.
Date: 04/07/15 14:47
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: Out_Of_Service
BobB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Out_Of_Service Wrote:
> so i'm
> > trying to figure out, if the rail length is
> 480ft
> > how only 2 welds are needed to build a ft
> > section of CWR ..
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> Take three 480 foot lengths, put them end to end,
> weld them together where they touch and you have
> feet. There will, of course, need to be
> additional welds when the foot lengths are
> connected to each other.
TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Out_Of_Service Wrote:
>
>
> > in the article it states the rail lengths are
> > 480ft and only 2 welds will be needed ... so
> i'm
> > trying to figure out, if the rail length is
> 480ft
> > how only 2 welds are needed to build a ft
> > section of CWR ..
>
> 3x480=
>
> Weld 1 - 480+480=960
>
> Weld 2 - 960+480=
>
> TAW
HA !!! ... i never professed to be a math professor :-) ... my dumbass never noticed that i pressed 2 instead of 3 using my calculator app ... what a dope i am ...
Posted from Android
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/15 14:55 by Out_Of_Service.
Date: 04/07/15 14:53
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: Out_Of_Service
junctiontower Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just out of curiosity, I took at a look at Steel
> Dynamics' website. It says they produce 115RE,
> 136RE and 141RE in 320' sections, so thier
> continous rail will have one more weld than the
> stuff UP is buying.
which goes to my point about cost because it would be more than likely be just as much to modify an existing rail manufacturing facility than building a new facility to produce that length of rail ...
Posted from Android
Date: 04/07/15 15:37
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: LarryDoyle
Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> shadetree Wrote:
> -----
> ... the heaviest rail made in the US was
> by Bethlehem Steel manufactured in the 30s of last
> century in 39ft 155# sections for then the
> Standard Railroad of the World ... the PRR ...
(Was it 155# or 152#? My data shows 152#)
DM&IR also used this rail. I don't think anyone else did, though.
There was an A.T.E.A. [sic.] standard for 155.3# 9" Girder Guard Rail for use on curves on street railways, compatible with their 134.1# 9" Girder Grooved Rail. I don't know how widely it was used, if at all.
Incidentally, street railways were the pioneers in use of field welded rail - by several decades!
-John
Date: 04/07/15 15:50
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: Out_Of_Service
LarryDoyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Out_Of_Service Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > shadetree Wrote:
> > -----
>
> > ... the heaviest rail made in the US was
> > by Bethlehem Steel manufactured in the 30s of
> last
> > century in 39ft 155# sections for then the
> > Standard Railroad of the World ... the PRR ...
>
> (Was it 155# or 152#? My data shows 152#)
>
> DM&IR also used this rail. I don't think anyone
> else did, though.
>
> There was an A.T.E.A. standard for 155.3# 9"
> Girder Guard Rail for use on curves on street
> railways, compatible with their 134.1# 9" Girder
> Grooved Rail. I don't know how widely it was
> used, if at all.
>
> Incidentally, street railways were the pioneers in
> use of field welded rail - by several decades!
>
> -John
155# i worked with it on the west end Harrisburg Line ... there might be a short section of it in Bryn Mawr interlocking but it's been 5 years since i was employed so it might be gone by now ...
Posted from Android
Date: 04/07/15 16:01
Re: UP buying long rail
Author: up833
Length of rail seems a pretty easy thing to overcome by US mfgs. Perhaps its the Head Hardening in 480' sections thats the key to importing this special rail? Also recent reports have emphasied the lower cost of imported vs US steel, because of the price of ore.. Making a wild guess but I bet a ship load of rail from Japan can be delivered to Stockton at less expense than numerous train load of rail from IL or even CO.
Roger B
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